Formation Discussion
By: Corey | August 23rd, 2007We have had some lively banter about who should play where and how recently, and I thought it would be a good idea to open this up to everyone and let you guys pick apart or compliment my ideas. We all have seen that Schuster is lacking something tactically, so lets see if he reads this and takes notes.
A 4-5-1 is my preferred formation for any team anywhere. This was suggested by John already, but here me out.
A lone striker role suits RVN, whil the sorta played something similar to that with Capello. But that was very defensive. Raul should probably be benched, and Guti would take the armband in that case. Raul has not played in his typical goal scoring role all the time last year, and because of that he has not scored regularly and has played more as a midfielder, which he never looks completely comfortable with. He should be benched if we play 4-5-1 because he doesnt fit. A 4-4-2 will suit him, and I think he should be given a shot in the hole before he is benched with that formation too. In a 4-4-2, Guti and Raul conflict a bit, especially if Guti is playing centrally. So do you play Guti or Raul? Its up to you, i go with the on form player, but for now id stick to a 4-5-1, width always stretches a team and the direct running of Drenthe/Robben combined with the skills of Robinho can put an opponent on the back foot. Diarra can manage defensive duties if he has a little help, i.e. Sneijder, Gagao or De La Red. a three man central midfield of Diarra, Sneijder and Guti shows you a varying degree of skills and roles. You have defense in Diarra, creativity and brilliance from Guti, and a combo of defense and offense, especially goals, from Sneijder.
A midfields shape should dictate its play, so quick ball movement and diagnol runs from the wingers will help create panic in the opposition defense. John also suggested Sergio Ramos in the centre with Torres on the right, which i firmly agree too. So here is my preferred formation:
Casillas
Torres Sergio Ramos Metzelder Heinze
Diarrra
Sneijder
Guti
Robinho Robben
RVN
-Saviola and Soldado can be subbed into the lone striking role
-Drenthe will probably swap with Robben and occassionally play left back
-Balboa will play on the right or the left, but mostly the right
-Higuain may play on the right here, he wont do as a lone striker
-Raul has no place in this formation technically, but he can play on either flank
-De La Red and Gago can pretty much swap for Diarra or Sneijder, and even thought neither have the defensive no
how of Diarra, they will do their jobs adequately.
- Marcelo hopefully will sub in for Heinze alot, while Drenthe can play here as well as Torres
-Salgado will sub for Torres and vice versa, and Sergio Ramos can play here too
- Cannavaro and Pepe will be here, I expect them to be rotated alot. And Heinze can do a job here too
- Casillas should never not play, barring injry, but id rather have Adan play then Dudek.
Of course theres Esteban Granero, Adrian Gonzalez and Alberto Bueno but they will only get late game minutes and come in for injuries. Also, Agus may make up the 5th central defender of the first team, but he didnt do so hot in his only preseason start.
Go ahead, take it apart or compliment it, I dont really care. A 4-4-2 may be used too, but I dont need to go in depth here, we all know the roles would stay the same, except Raul would drop into the hole. This may happen once and awhile, but then again all of this stuff may never happen of course, Schuster should probably read this so he doesnt get fired.
Heres the presentations of Robben and Heinze, and the third link is them on the pitch:
http://www.realmadrid.com/articulo/rma42040.htm
http://www.realmadrid.com/articulo/rma42038.htm
http://www.realmadrid.com/articulo/rma42036.htm
And Robbens medical/presentation:
Keep it real gangstas…
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Great summary and let’s hope the German is listening. Quick thought for a 4-4-2 formation: Same defense and center midfield as expected, but with Drenthe at left wing, Robben at right wing, and Robinho up front with van Nistelrooy? Hmm?
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United States
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RM is getting too big for its own good. I can easily see it coming apart in those crucial moments thanks to what Barcelona suffered from last season: ego. While I don’t think Drenthe, Marcelo, Gago, et al are as intensely into themselves as Sammie Eto’o, they’ll get sick of being passed over for Robben, Heinze, etc.
Your formation is good, except I’m not sure about the midfield of Guti and Sneijder. That’s too many engineers in the engine room, so to speak. Or at least it is in my opinion. Guti is good enough and understand the league enough to run the team so starting him over Sneijder makes sense to me. As for that 11th guy, with Diarra in the defensive “holding” position, I can imagine putting on Higuain or (shudder) Raul. I think we’re both in agreement here, Corey, that Raul is no longer good enough to be an RM player, but there he is and there he looks like staying until about 2043. I like it, if only because I think it makes RM worse (like the inclusion of Heinze). Salgado too could gain large chunks of time on the field if Pepe doesn’t really work out (which I think he will, it’ll just take a little time for him to settle in and the Bernabeu faithful could turn on him as they have on other players. Depends a lot on the media, really.
I tend to dislike “lone wolf” approaches to formations unless there are capable players settling in behind to do the overlapping runs, as with your formation (and that of Barca, for instance). Robinho is that capable player, though his inclusion alongside Robben might be a little tougher to work out than you might think, as Robinho tends to appear mostly on the left. At the Copa America he got more time on the right, but at club level last year he was always on the left. It’ll be interesting to see if he can play on the right as you seem to be suggesting.
Regardless of what is done, though, I hope it fails miserably against Atlético.
Visca el Barca.
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Wow that is an absolutely beasty squad on paper. Wel just have to c if they can play together. I see that raul has lost his iconic status at Real
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Though I really like your 4-5-1 formation, I’ve some concerns.
The midfield of Drenthe, Diarra and Sneijder was just out-muscled and out-played by Sevilla in the last game. And with Diarra not playing as well as he used to play for Lyon, I really doubt if they’ll provide enough defensive cover for the back four. That was the trouble in the last game. The crosses weren’t blocked by the full backs and every counter attack crossed the midfield. may be it’s just the pre-season lazyness.
With Heinze and Robben certain to start, I don’t know where Drenthe is going to fit in. At this age, he should be playing every week but that’s not possible here. For his won good, he should’ve stayed put another year. But, Schuster might play him in midfield or in the hole like how he did against Sevilla. And he did look good.
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And now Heinze and Robben aren’t going to play in the derby, at least according to the tabloids. But I think they’re probably right and for good reason. It does mean that Drenthe will have another chance to prove himself and that you’ll have a “makeshift” LB.
I’m personally really excited for this game, which will showcase two new squads in a very intense situation, made especially more intense by the fact that it’s at the Bernabeu. The crowd should get pretty nasty if they fail to win…
Also, is GolTV not showing the derby until 6pm eastern time? They’re pre-empting live coverage of it for a repeat of Bayern Munich - Hannover 96? SERIOUSLY?
Is there another channel it’s being shown live on?
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GOLTV will be showing the derby LIVE.
AUPA ATLETI!
PUTA RE*L M*DRID.
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Scratch that bit about the derby being shown live on GolTV– I just checked the listings. That’s absolute bullshit.
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John- Robinho up front is a possibility of course, and he primarily played on the left last year which is why i was so skeptical about buying Robben in the first place. I also like Balboa alot, he is gonna develop alot this year if he plays, and he is primarily a right winger and i prefer for Balboa to get the start on the right then Robben when Drenthe is on the left. Drenthe is a squad player for me, an expensive one at that, he will need a few years to develop his true position still, he is caught in two minds i think
Isaiah- First off, I dont get Gol TV at school, i usualy stream the game through TVAnts web app. but since my schools network has such shitty streaming bandwith I dont know how many games I will be able to see, and I probably wont see the derbi cause i will be working. As for your tactical comments, im glad you agree. I dont think im right about everything, but im pretty sure about our formation and who should play where. it makes me wonder why coaches cant see these things when fans can. Raul should start from the bench and be an impact player, which is sometimes what guti will be doing. Sneijder may get the nod in a 3 man midfield because he can do a little of everything and because he is the new signing, but if he doesnt perform right away look for Gagao and De La Red to step into that role. This is of course if we play a 4-5-1. Who knows…
Haran- Drenthe as a pure midfield player in a 3 man midfield is never gonna work, he isnt that type of player. Also, thats two brand new players and Diarra who hasnt been at his best yet for us in that midfield against Sevilla. Sevilla added a few key guys, but the core of the team never changes and thats why they play so well, chemistry. Until Real stops selling and buying loads of players each year and replacing the coach bi-annually we will never play like that. Expect a transition period for the new signings to bed in and for Schuster tactics to sink in. Trouble is Calderon has his finger on the trigger already, so we may never get the stability thats so key.
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Personally, as I said in my previous post, I prefer the 4-3-3. The midfield doesn’t feel so clogged up, and with two wingers marauding further up the pitch, you pin back the opponent’s defensive line.
I think the key is having a ball-winning holding midfielder, who we used to have in Makelele… idiot Perez, selling him off. Diarra is a good tackler, but he’s not a ballwinner in the same respect. Neither is Gago, for all his comparisons to Redondo.
Remember our Champions League team of 2002? Some might say they played a 4-4-2, but that’s assuming that Figo was a midfielder, which he really isn’t. He’s more of a winger/forward, and you’d want him in a more advanced position anyways. Let’s make a comparison and see how we stand now, based on my proposed 4-3-3:
Pos - Then :: Now
GK - Cesar :: Casillas (upgrade, though Casillas actually subbed into the 2003 CL final, too bad we don’t have such a sub now)
RB - Salgado :: Ramos (upgrade)
CB - Hierro :: Cannavaro (downgrade, based on current form)
CB - Helguera :: Metzelder (even or upgrade, not sure how he or Pepe will pan out but probably can’t be worse than Helguera)
LB - R. Carlos :: Heinze (downgrade, Carlos in 2002 was AWESOME)HMF - Makelele :: Diarra (downgrade)
MF - Zidane :: Sneijder (downgrade)
MF - Solari :: Guti (upgrade)FW - Figo :: Robinho (downgrade to even, Robinho needs to score more to get to Figo’s level)
FW - Morientes :: Robben (upgrade)
FW - Raul :: van Nistelrooy (even, this was Raul’s last good season)So, generally worse than 2002, though that was the best year of the Galacticos, so nothing to be ashamed of. Anyways, the coach that year was Vicente del Bosque, and all he did was win 2 Champions League titles, so if he plays 4-3-3, well, by golly, that’s good enough for me.
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well Steve, the team of 2002 was not comprised of Solari Makelele Zidane and Figo in the midfield. Flavio Conciecao or Esteban Cambiasso would play centrally along with Guti, Solari rarely played in the middle, and to compare Guti to Solari is just not fair. Like wise to compare El Moro to Robben doesnt make much sense. the 2002 formation was a strange but effective one that was tailored to the players, Del Bosques genius. Roberto Carlos practically covered the whole left flank, while Zidane pinched in so often. Raul played in the whole, but El Moro was his best ever partner because he complimented Rauls style, someting Ronaldo and RVN dont do as much, but also because Raul does not play that role anymore.
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Atleti, I saw that too, but I’ve seen other listings where it’s supposedly live. How can it not be live? The point of GolTV, as far as I’m concerned, is to show La Liga games, not f-ing Bundesliga replays.
Steve, as for the formation, I think RVN is better by far than Raul ever was. Sure, Raul had some good years (his best was 98/99 when he was pichichi with 25, same as RVN last year), but he’s never been as good as RVN at turning a single game around. And I think that’s the mark of a truly great player. Perhaps that’s just my anti-Raulness coming through, though.
The rest of the squad I think I agree with, though Cannavaro on his day is as good as Hierro. Solari was at least consistently not that good while Guti is inconsistent about everything. You knew what you were getting with Solari. Robben may be an upgrade to Morientes in the midfield but as a striker? No way. I think Metzelder is a slight upgrade from Helguera, but is Metzelder’s low league appearances number for BVB based on injuries or coaching? If it’s injuries, that sucks for RM…and it means Pepe!
Heinze is such a downgrade it’s unreal. Start Drenthe, not Heinze.
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Corey: Sorry, should’ve clarified. I based my lineup on the actual starting lineup from the CL 2002 final. On that day, Solari started and Conciecao came on as a sub, but Cambiasso didn’t play. That reminds me, why did we let Cambiasso go to Inter? Damn it.
Anyways, I don’t really remember where Solari played, but he was a left midfielder. But you are right, Carlos did cover the entire left side. Madrid probably played a narrow 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, with Carlos and Figo going up the wings, in which case Solari would go back to cover on counters.
So, it’s not apples to apples, but if you compared the entire midfield - Zidane, Solari, Makelele to Guti, Sneijder, Diarra - we’d lose two matchups and win one, no matter which way you slice it.
Isaiah: For a Barca supporter, you sure do comment a lot on our boards. I could care less about doing the same on yours, but then again, it’s all good fun.
Anyways, I’m not sure you can say that about Raul, not being a game-changer. He was, back in the day, for a good 3-4 years, absolutely incisive in his runs and always threatening to break out behind the defense. RVN is a true centre-forward, he needs good delivery from the wings or the midfield in order to be effective.
The problem with Raul, i think, coincidentally started when Madrid got Ronaldo. It’s been downhill ever since. They’re basically the same player. To play them both though, Raul had to change from the guy lingering on the last defender and waiting to make a run, to a Rooney-type of role, picking up the ball from the midfield and playing in.
The difference between RVN and Ronaldo is that RVN has better instincts than Ronaldo ever did, particularly in positioning, whereas Ronaldo just had that explosive burst and once he was ahead, forget about it.
Anyways, I agree about Cannavaro - you don’t win the Ballon d’Or for nothing, but he’s yet to show that in white. I didn’t mean to compare Morientes to Robben as a striker, per se, but as a forward in general. Neither of them strike me as midfielders, and while Morientes could play a true striker role, both are more of the linking forward types. In any case, with RVN in the middle, I think Robben will do exceptionally well this year, provided he can stay on the pitch.
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United Kingdom -
Cambiasso being let go was a mistake, but Solari being let go was too. I like Solari, he was versatile and he is under used at Inter. To look at Flavio and Makelele compared to Emerson and Diarra would be a far comparison, but Emerson is gone and Diarra provides more physicality but less ball wining with few fouls. Id take Flavio and Makelele over Diarra and Emerson anyday. We are still paying for the over sights of the Florentino Perez era. Letting both Flavio and Makelele was a huge mistake, as was Del Bosque. Still have not recovered from that. Last years title was fortunate, but not well deserved. We did not play well, we grinded out games which is good to a degree, but thats not good enough in Spain we all know that.
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United States -
I think the most valid points being made here are that Madrid should have held on to a lot of talent, rather than constantly chasing after the hottest young players, and that one of Madrid’s biggest problems, accordingly, is that the team never has a chance to get comfortable, so there’s no chemisty, as Corey put it.
Going back to the formation, I think Isaiah is too harsh on Heinze, probably because rather than watch the Copa America, he was in his bedroom fantasizing about holding Puyol’s hand. Heinze played poorly for Man Utd, and is getting on in age, but the same was said about a certain Dutch striker who won el Pichichi last season. I say start Heinze at left back. He’s far more defensive minded than Drenthe, and can put a stop to counter attacks from the wings.
I agree with Isaiah about Sneijder and Guti at midfield, and on second thought like the idea of De la Red playing the second holding mid. I’m still not sold on Gago. He just hasn’t found the form he had with Boca, and I doubt he ever will in Madrid.
With Robben - one thing we should all consider is the status of his knee and ankle. Besides the fact that we didn’t really need him, his problems with injuries are another reason that spending 36mil on him was not the brightest move. He will eventually be valuable, due to his pace at the wing, but I wouldn’t be suprised if his appearances are infrequent at the start of the season.
And as far as Robinho and the left/right debate? Robinho played on the left because Beckham was on the right, and Reyes wasn’t performing. When Reyes was in, and Beckham was out, Robinho would start on the right. He’s a right winger/striker - that’s where he’s natural. Again: he was on the left as a patch.
Anyways, there’s still a lot of questions, and the begining (if not the first half) of the season there will continue to be a lot of experimenting, and hopefully Schuster will prove to be a quick learner. The competition will be good, and the best players will emerge. For now: derby, derby, DERBY!!! HALA MADRID!!!
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United States -
Hi.
Good design, who make it?Posted from
United States
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